To: "Michael E. Mann" <firstname.lastname@example.org>,Tom Wigley <email@example.com>, Tom Crowley <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Subject: Re: POLL ON SOON-BALIUNAS
Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:48:05 +0100
Cc: Keith Briffa <email@example.com>, Michael Oppenheimer <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Raymond Bradley <email@example.com>, Malcolm Hughes <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Jonathan Overpeck <email@example.com>, Kevin Trenberth <firstname.lastname@example.org>,Ben Santer <email@example.com>, Steve Schneider <firstname.lastname@example.org>,Caspar Ammann <email@example.com>, firstname.lastname@example.org,email@example.com
I once met Soon at a meeting organised by the ESA in Tenerife. I think he gave a talk
but only think, so it wasn't memorable in any way. As you say they don't come to the
regular meetings like EGU/S, AGU, AMS etc. I only went to Tenerife as the organisers paid
for me to go.
Citation ratings vary (there are several different scales/indicators as well) a lot
from year to year for most journals. I've never figured out how the counting is done wrt
the highly cited lists that Tom. W., Kevin and I are on. Do only first authorships count
example? Even with a common name like mine people still get it wrong and mistakes
Surprisingly Jim Hansen doesn't make the above list (http://www.highlycited.com), but
he normally drops his E.
There are few more journals (QSR, Climate Change, IJC, AAR to give a few) where
paleo papers also appear.
At 10:43 13/08/2003 -0400, Michael E. Mann wrote:
I checked this out prior to my senate hearing. Their science citations in the climate
literature are poor, as one would hope and expect.
Interestingly, they both drop their second initials when publishing in the climate
literature so that their names don't turn in up in ISI if you do a search on their
publications in the astronomy literature (which use the full initials)--apparently,
they don't want their astronomy colleagues to be aware that they're moonlighting as
Their numbers are better in the astronomy literature, though Soon's numbers even here
Baliunas had some well-cited publications more than a decade ago. This is her work on
the use of sun-like stars as a model for solar variability, etc., which is well
referenced in the astrophysics community. However, most of these appear to be her Ph.D.
work, and appear to have been published w/ her Ph.D adviser.
Not much evidence however that she has made any useful, independent contribution since
then. There are some additional papers she's published on time series analysis of solar
signals--looks like the kind of stuff you might expect to see from a graduate student
first-year research project....
In my opinion, its would be a mistake to evaluate these on their citations numbers in
astronomy. We should focus on their numbers in the climate literature, which are the
only ones relevant when discussing the issue of how their work on climate is received by
their fellow scientists,
At 08:15 AM 8/13/2003 -0600, Tom Wigley wrote:
Might be interesting to see how frequently Soon and Baliunas, individually, are cited
(as astronomers). Are they any good in their own fields?
Perhaps we could start referring to them as astrologers (excusable as ... 'oops, just a
Tom Crowley wrote:
we need some data on Soon and Baliunas. one of my concerns is that they only publish in
low impact journals and completely bypass the normal give and take of presentations at
open scientific meetings (for example, I think I have probably heard 100 presentations
overall from the people on this mailing list).
it is therefore very important to inquire for the sake or our exchanges with
reporters/legislators etc as to how often any of you may have heard Soon or Baliunas
give a talk in an open meeting, where they could defend their analyses.
please respond to me as to whether you have heard either of them present something on
their paleo-analyses (I think I heard Baliunas speak once on her solar-type star work,
but that doesn't count).
I will let you know the results of the poll so that we may all be on the same grounds
with respect to the data and reporting such information to press inquiries/legislators
further fyi I list below the journal impact for six geophysical/climate/paleoclimate
J. Climate 3.250
J. Geophysical Res. (Climate) 2.245
Geophysical Research Letters 2.150
The Holocene 1.852
Climate Research 1.016
Science and Nature are much higher (26-30) but there citation numbers are I believe
inflated with respect to our field because their citation ranking also includes many
very widely cited biology publications.
hope to hear from you soon, Tom
Professor Michael E. Mann
Department of Environmental Sciences, Clark Hall
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, VA 22903
e-mail: firstname.lastname@example.org Phone: (434) 924-7770 FAX: (434) 982-2137
Prof. Phil Jones
Climatic Research Unit Telephone +44 (0) 1603 592090
School of Environmental Sciences Fax +44 (0) 1603 507784
University of East Anglia
Norwich Email email@example.com